tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post2732734746148177061..comments2024-03-25T09:31:36.926+01:00Comments on Furahan Biology and Allied Matters: TetroptersSigmund Nastrazzurrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-962521193629726662009-12-08T22:30:17.639+01:002009-12-08T22:30:17.639+01:00Sketchup! I've played with it but would not ha...Sketchup! I've played with it but would not have guessed it could be used for things like this. <br /><br />I appreciate you making rough animations for yourself just to get an idea; I do that all the time. Still, it's a pity about the frame rate.Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-52437139159461633772009-12-07T15:28:39.924+01:002009-12-07T15:28:39.924+01:00There are bilateral flyers on Nereus, but they'...There are bilateral flyers on Nereus, but they're relatively new to the scene so they've only put this order of life into sharp decline instead of completely wiping it out yet.<br /><br />The model was made in Google SketchUp, frame by frame, then compiled in Adobe Imageready, so I <i>could</i> increase the frame rate, but it would require constructing the new frames by hand and incorporating them into the animation. If I had a better program I'd probably use that, but anything else costs money. Mostly I just do these to give myself a rough idea of how creatures would move, so it hasn't been worth purchasing anything yet.<br /><br />But rotopters are an example of convergent evolution to Furahan life, unfortunately, so it doesn't have <i>too much</i> relevance to your blog (which is inspiring and helpful, by the way).Evan Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-13264358510381066782009-12-06T17:43:03.183+01:002009-12-06T17:43:03.183+01:00Vey nice! I do not know to which extent the counte...Vey nice! I do not know to which extent the counter rotating nether winglets negate the rotation effect of the much larger upper wings, but it should help. Unless there is something vastly superior in the air in your world, this could work. <br /><br />How did you produce the animation, by the way? <br /><br />If your rotopters are the direct fictional descendants of my tetropters, then I wouldn't mind posting the animation on my blog (but in that case it would be nice to increase the frame rate of the animation).Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-85706144267722282952009-12-06T07:27:08.511+01:002009-12-06T07:27:08.511+01:00The end of that link is /RotopterA.gifThe end of that link is /RotopterA.gifEvan Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-52934092003041321682009-12-06T07:26:21.040+01:002009-12-06T07:26:21.040+01:00'Kay I hope I'm not bugging you with all o...'Kay I hope I'm not bugging you with all of my comments, but I've put up a rough animation of how I see my "rotopters" working:<br /><br />http://temp.evanblacknet.officelive.com/images/RotopterA.gif<br /><br />Again, this is just to give a general idea of how the creatures could fly.Evan Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-19004257037842434552009-12-05T18:49:08.314+01:002009-12-05T18:49:08.314+01:00I'd never thought of adjusting angle of attack...I'd never thought of adjusting angle of attack to compensate for the low-speed lift loss. That probably means that "clap-flap" could probably work for <i>some</i> of the radial flyers.<br /><br />As far as my "rotopters" are concerned, another set of wings <i>could</i> be developed from their mouth parts, as I mentioned, but they wouldn't have the same surface area as the more traditionally developed wings would. Could the size difference be compensated for with increased speed/angle of attack as well?<br /><br />And while my radial flyers are not yet ready, I have other stuff up at the following site:<br /><br />http://temp.evanblacknet.officelive.com/Nereushome.aspx<br /><br />It's all still under construction, so keep that in mind. My work can also be found in the Speculative Evolution forums.Evan Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-29440788961698193252009-12-05T12:07:42.539+01:002009-12-05T12:07:42.539+01:00As for having the wings vary in speed to allow the...As for having the wings vary in speed to allow the clap effect to take place, that is ingenious. What it probably also means is that the variations in speed lead to variations in lift, unless these can be compensated by varying the angle of the attack of the wing. If any variations in lift remain, the question arises whether the gain of having a clap effect outweighs the reduced lift of a lower wing speed. All in all, it sound like exactly the kind of messy optimization problem that biological evolution comes up with, and is good at solving.<br /><br />You can indeed solve the rotation problem by counteracting control surfaces. I do not know whether your designs allow two sets of wings, if if it does, the rotation problem can be solved by having the two sets rotate in different directions. <br /><br />Can your designs be seen anywhere on the web?Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-58254649514594420442009-12-04T23:46:04.617+01:002009-12-04T23:46:04.617+01:00Yeah, I've read them all (and intently! :) ), ...Yeah, I've read them all (and intently! :) ), but I posted on this one because it had the most relevant material for my comment (I'll quit if it's a problem).<br /><br />The reason I asked is because in my own exobiology project I'm working with tripedal critters, and while I have a smattering of bilaterally symmetrical flyers, I want to have radial flyers as well. I've put together some diagrams of the "clap-flap" method, and I found a solution to each wing not having another to clap against at each extreme of its motion: wings go slower in one direction than the other, and their phase difference allows them to meet up at each end. But it would still have the "wobbling" lift problem that you explained.<br /><br />I've been looking at your "silly" method as well, and as far as my own creature is concerned I was thinking of developing its tentacled mouth-parts into flight surfaces that inversely correspond to the wing's beat direction. this would counteract the net rotation, wouldn't it?Evan Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-86155374243638014462009-12-04T18:34:03.484+01:002009-12-04T18:34:03.484+01:00Hi Evan,
I never expected anyone to comment on a ...Hi Evan,<br /><br />I never expected anyone to comment on a post of over 1 year old.<br /><br />Have you seen the later posts on tetropters (June & July 2009)?<br /><br />Anyway, the answer is yes, but it will not less efficient that with an even number of wings.<br /><br />It is hard to explain without a diagram, but I will try: consider a triopter, i.e. an animal with three radial wings. Remember that every wing moves to and fro, and that it is supposed to clap against a neighbour wing at the extreme positions of its 'to' as well as its 'fro' movement. <br /><br />Let's have two of the three wings clapping against one another in their cycle. Exactly half a cycle later, both these wings will be at their other extreme position, where they should clap against another wing. The problem is that there is only one wing left, and it cannot be in two places at once. So you will miss one 'clap'. Apart from providing less lift, the process will provide uneven amounts of lift around the body axis, causing the poor triopter to wobble in the air. <br /><br />The same holds for pentopters, heptopters, etc.Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-76894135613270585782009-12-04T09:15:39.253+01:002009-12-04T09:15:39.253+01:00Is it possible to come up with a "clap-flap&q...Is it possible to come up with a "clap-flap" system with an odd number of wings?Evan Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.com