tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post3149413919181871640..comments2024-03-18T16:45:36.195+01:00Comments on Furahan Biology and Allied Matters: Ballooning animals and Newtonian fitness (Ballonts III)Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-25355068881955733302011-07-30T03:02:46.426+02:002011-07-30T03:02:46.426+02:00Really interesting and informative - I'll take...Really interesting and informative - I'll take all of that into account with balloon worms.Danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08003670630562338899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-59884169905697138752011-07-30T02:55:20.713+02:002011-07-30T02:55:20.713+02:00The best Darwinian scenario I can imagine to bring...The best Darwinian scenario I can imagine to bring about ballonts is a man o' war-like creature that floats at the surface of the water that suddenly faces an influx of predators. Though stinging cells may curb many attacks, perhaps there is too much damage due to attrition (the predator is stung but the victim is damaged as well). Those who float higher, and can even leave the water based on buoyancy, will survive. Predators leap from the water to try and catch them and the evolutionary arms race is off! There may be better scenarios, but that's one that seems pretty clear in my mind.<br /><br />A ballont complex enough to "look back" will have to be very large to lift the weight of the heavy brain and supportive organs. The size of the balloon could be diminished by a denser atmosphere.Evan Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-63144226196612545622011-07-28T22:45:25.174+02:002011-07-28T22:45:25.174+02:00Hi dP,
That is creative thinking. I am still stru...Hi dP,<br /><br />That is creative thinking. I am still struggling with how to get the evolution of ballonts rolling.<br /><br />As for minimal mass, perhaps. I guess I wanted something to look at and that would be complex enough to look back at me.<br /><br />As for the '2 atmospheres', I did not put that very well. What I meant was an atmosphere under a pressure of twice that of our atmosphere.Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-81066019807961238402011-07-28T17:30:50.521+02:002011-07-28T17:30:50.521+02:00Well, didn't feathers start for warming purpos...Well, didn't feathers start for warming purposes, before being used for flight? So could balloon-like organs start for some other reason (I'm thinking, once again, sexual display like an elephant seal's nose taken to extremes) and evolve from there (it's such a delicate system it'd have to evolve in a relatively isolated ecology I suspect, like an island).<br /><br />Regarding minimum size, I was just reading on Wikipedia that Sea Spider muscles consist of one cell each. I don't know if that's true, but if so it suggests that you can get away with very little in the way of body....I'm wondering if you could strip a small balloon with a few muscle cells and still get it to wiggle like the blimps in your previous ballonts post...<br /><br />What was the 2 atmosphere idea? Was that like those saline lakes located under the ocean (http://www.geekologie.com/2008/09/wait_what_an_underwater_lake.php)? That would be interesting. I'd love to see a post about making athmosphere more dense but still somewhere humans could visit, what you would have to change chemically to make that happen.dPhttp://www.irrationalanimals.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-54584780103843382932011-07-22T05:53:20.590+02:002011-07-22T05:53:20.590+02:00hm...maybe a system like the Drakensberg (South Af...hm...maybe a system like the Drakensberg (South Africa), herbivores and carnivores going up and down the mountains.<br /><br />meanwhile, warmth-generating plants (they exist on Earth, I assume other worlds have them too) develop bubbles or other structures for storing heat at night/dispersing seeds (or both).<br /><br />and go from there?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-54972469170040842582011-07-21T23:48:21.114+02:002011-07-21T23:48:21.114+02:00Evan, Rodlox,
With all the comments I am starting...Evan, Rodlox,<br /><br />With all the comments I am starting to struggle to keep ballonts in some way or another. As Evan said, they are too interesting... <br /><br />I cannot keep them as they were. Small ones have to go. Even with a '2 atmosphere' atmosphere they have too be big and passive (I guessed as much earlier). <br /><br />Dispersal in any shape or form is a good idea, including seasonal patterns, but the riddle remains how to get the system started...Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-88365341334792927612011-07-21T23:38:57.255+02:002011-07-21T23:38:57.255+02:00had a thought in the car: what if the balloon pa...had a thought in the car: what if the balloon part of the ballont only grows when the herbivores and carnivores are all elsewhere (ie a Serengeti-type mass migration)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-64829696319419727882011-07-21T00:13:58.946+02:002011-07-21T00:13:58.946+02:00That balloon phase to distribute eggs (seeds, in m...That balloon phase to distribute eggs (seeds, in my case) like dP mentioned is exactly how I plan to use it with my own project.<br /><br />I just think that ballonts are too interesting to abandon in my own work. It's a shame they will be leaving Furaha, but while I do think they are plausible, they would also be very rare and shouldn't show up <i>everywhere</i>.Evan Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-45573016963194420302011-07-20T22:27:22.984+02:002011-07-20T22:27:22.984+02:00Rodlox:
I did not know about the Lion's mane ...Rodlox:<br /><br />I did not know about the Lion's mane (how could it have escaped me?) Thank you.<br /><br />dP:<br />A very logical conclusion. I have once painted a sessile mixomorph whose ballont larvae spread through the air, but there weren't any who used it to disperse many seeds at a time. The idea makes good sense.Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-29149262052037192312011-07-20T14:11:04.203+02:002011-07-20T14:11:04.203+02:00Very interesting!
Based on your issues with sm...Very interesting!<br /><br /> Based on your issues with small balloons not having enough lift to overcome their own weight, I'd say you'd definitely have to start looking at a butterfly-type lifecycle, with a terrestial phase to grow before going airborne.<br /> Is there any possible way to have your lift gases also function in digestion?<br /> It seems ithat the most outlandish physical adaptations in nature, the ones of questionable survival usefulness, all wind up going back to sex. So a balloon phase most likely wouldn't be eating, it would be all about finding a mate and distributing eggs all over wherever the wind took you before you used up all your stored energy.....dPhttp://www.IrrationalAnimals.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-50576864369202834182011-07-17T08:20:56.662+02:002011-07-17T08:20:56.662+02:00large jellyfish exist - Lion's Mane and Man...large jellyfish exist - Lion's Mane and Man'o'War, as two examples.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-23745322437357922682011-07-16T23:44:27.362+02:002011-07-16T23:44:27.362+02:00My friends, I think I have never had so many nor s...My friends, I think I have never had so many nor such long and detailed immediate replies to any post before. Thank you. <br /><br />"Keep ballonts aloft"; well, I have thought about atmospheric density, temperature, membrane composition and bladder-to-body ratio, and am still very doubtful about ballonts. <br /><br />However, I have not studied all these aspects in the detail they deserve yet. But after this first quantitative exercise I am inclined to think that passive large ballonts are feasible from a physical point of view. Biologically the story may be different, and small ones are difficult in any sense. <br /><br />The comparison with jellyfish and the like is very apt. Passively floating organisms with little control over their whereabouts are feasible. The main problem may be that jellyfish can be small and extremely numerous, while we are used to large animals being rare. Are exceptions possible?<br /><br />It is quite possible that large ballonts are feasible if a jellyfish-like environment is available, as may be the case for Jovian planets: high pressure, possibly abundant resources, etc. In the New Hades store you will find a cover blurb stating that Jovian Floaters being common enough to be boring. The real challenge is designing ballonts for terrestrial planets. <br /><br />I'll be back.Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-91822851990242004422011-07-16T06:50:43.685+02:002011-07-16T06:50:43.685+02:00I desperately want the ballonts to be saved :( .
...I desperately want the ballonts to be saved :( .<br /><br />Let me try and address Zerraspace's points as best I can.<br /><br />Evolution: <br /><br />Perhaps the ballonts started as pelagic creatures who stayed afloat with gas bags that, by a quirk of their biochemistry, happened to be full of hydrogen. They were basically giant portuguese man o' wars, catching prey with their tentacles and using their bladders to catch the wind. Larger bladders had a greater surface area and caught the wind more easily; over time, some of these creatures developed gas bags that flew well above the surface of the water, practically lifting the whole animal into the air. <br /><br />At some point, some ballonts became adapted to rise completely out of the water when they entered a stretch of barren ocean; hopefully the wind would carry them to more productive waters. The ballonts would drift in a comatose state until some cue, maybe a chemical signal from a tentacle trailing in the water, prompted them to come down again. <br /><br />The development of greater flying ability allowed some ballonts to evolve a longer lifecycle; rather than dying when the winter came around, the ballonts could rise above the weather and wait for plankton to bloom again in the spring. <br /><br />From there, the rest was a fairly straightforward increase in flying ability; stronger balloons, color changing ability, acute sensitivity to winds and temperatures etc. The ability of some ballonts to come down to land was a later development, perhaps with a transitional stage of visiting freshwater lakes.<br /><br />Navigation:<br /><br />Ballonts like the Zeppeloon don't need to worry about turning quickly to avoid an obstacle; even when they descend to feed, it is only their tentacles that get close to the ground. What they do need to worry about is staying within the right range of latitudes, and presumably they accomplish this by taking careful note of things like air pressure, wind speed and direction, the angle of the sun, and other things. They use this information to instinctively determine at what altitude to hover in order to catch the right wind or stay above unpleasant weather. Tiny creatures like bees and butterflies manage similar navigational feats on a different timescale. <br /><br />Defense:<br /><br />The zeppeloon is obviously beyond the reach of most creatures, both by virtue of its size and the altitude at which it flies. For smaller ballonts closer to Earth, poison seems like an option, especially since they will already be equipped with (presumably) stinging tentacles. They won't make very appetizing prey in any case, being hard to reach for land animals, and containing little to no muscle.<br /><br />The balloon wouldn't be easy to puncture if it was made of a mylar-like substance as Sigmund assumes. I'm with him in thinking that a mylar-like cuticle isn't a stretch to evolve.<br /><br />Energy:<br /><br />Unfortunately, I have no idea how much energy it would cost to generate the hydrogen to fill a balloon. It does suggest an interesting lifestyle of "gas parasites", ballonts that obtain a large portion of their hydrogen by puncturing the gasbags of others with a proboscis. They wouldn't be able to track their prey, but perhaps could rely on chance encounters like the pelagic sea slug Glaucus atlanticus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaucus_atlanticus (scientists apparently aren't sure if it can control its movement through the water, but even if it can it must rely mostly on chance to bring siphonophores close by).<br /><br />That addresses all the side issues, although the evolution of ballonts could be improved still. I'm with J.W. Berk in wondering if the atmosphere of Furaha could be tweaked to solve the physical problems; presumably it's already thicker than Earth's, since Furaha has higher gravity. But I guess Sigmund will have an answer in the next blog post :) .Lukenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-80458122361349743682011-07-16T01:23:20.362+02:002011-07-16T01:23:20.362+02:00no Ballonts from here on? :(
I forget how author...no Ballonts from here on? :(<br /><br />I forget how author Robert Silverberg devised them, but he created ballont-like plants: they are shrub- and tree-sized succulents(?) that, as the plant ages, the spot connecting a branch to the rest of the plant weakens and eventually breaks off -- but as the attachment point is weakening, the branch is growing larger and larger (and lighter)...and the branch eventually floats away to take root somewhere far away.<br /><br /><br />Zerraspace - how do they avoid predators? well, maybe they live above where the predators live.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-60550814783290005432011-07-16T01:10:19.354+02:002011-07-16T01:10:19.354+02:00Lift for lighter-than-air seeds might be a differe...Lift for lighter-than-air seeds might be a different story. They would want to caught by the wind and blown around, unlike potential animal ballonts, so perhaps increasing surface area to catch wind with minimum weight gain would be beneficial to them. Lighter-than-air plants were also planned for Epona, although I'm not sure the idea ever came to fruition. Do you think we'll have to break the news to it? For that matter, does this invalidate ballonts living on gas giants where the air pressure is enormously higher?<br /><br />Well, that definitely wasn't the answer I was expecting, Sigmund Nastrazzurro, particularly since the physics seemed to support the idea of large ballonts - at a glance at least. While I was never quite a believer in them I will mourn the ballonts' passing; they seem to me symbolic of the wonder of Furaha's wildlife, just like the tetropters so often discussed here. If you remove the zeppeloon, will you replace it with another flier, or just a "flying with..." page (and for that matter, will you include lighter-than-air flight in this explanation?)Zerraspacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07787257487928482864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-80586703998829080022011-07-16T01:03:26.663+02:002011-07-16T01:03:26.663+02:00Thank you very much! This covers some topics i...Thank you very much! This covers some topics i've tried to calculate for myself in the past, and wasn't confident of the results.<br /><br /><br />Re: Floating seeds vs giant blimps.<br /><br />If i follow you correctly, you've calculations assume that the membrane is the same thickness/density for the 5mm seedlings, and the 5m giants. While i have no idea what a realistic density for the membrane would be, i'm reasonably sure that a 5mm object could get away with a much thinner, weaker, and less dense membrane than a larger balllont would require.<br /><br /><br />Re: Removing Ballonts from Furaha<br /><br />Is your planet so well established that you can't increase the air density? That could give you enough wiggle room to make the Ballonts more viable.<br /><br /><br />Zerraspace:<br />For ways that ballonts could survive (once you get them to float) consider earth's jellyfish or salps. Many of the questions you raise are answered by them. Such passive, slow, fragile creatures are probably better models for ballonts than sharks or whales-- at least in atmosphere than is not many times denser than ours.<br /><br />For sustenance total or partial reliance on photosynthesis, or photosynthetic algea/bacteria, seems probable to me.j. w. bjerkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06800512284198234202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-44745690022721717022011-07-16T00:42:17.996+02:002011-07-16T00:42:17.996+02:00Though there are no animal ballonts on Nereus, I d...Though there are no animal ballonts on Nereus, I do plan on several plants having lighter-than-air qualities. Thanks to this post I'll keep in mind that any floating seeds I have in mind can't be too small.<br /><br />Once again, your work is insightful and helpful!Evan Blackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10493966209787828900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-4326889152767991902011-07-15T23:33:11.648+02:002011-07-15T23:33:11.648+02:00Zerraspace,
I think I have caused a misunderstand...Zerraspace,<br /><br />I think I have caused a misunderstanding of large proportions. When I first painted ballonts I had not taken the trouble of working out their basic physical nature (odd, as my knowledge of physics was fresher than it is now). I just assumed, as do many people in speculative biology, that a nice idea would be enough. Later I became more and more convinced that ballonts might not be viable. However, without a proper quantification I felt there was room for doubt. That explains why you may find statements in earlier posts that microballonts might be feasible and large ones might not. In today's post, I argue the exact opposite, but this time I actually did the maths!<br /><br />I should have done it sooner though, as I had my doubts for a long time, evidenced by this post: http://planetfuraha.blogspot.com/2009/08/lighter-than-air-mechanical.html. In it, I wrote "The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that I cannot really get away with ballonts on Furaha." There is a similar remark in my recent newspaper interview (in Dutch), and that finally prompted me to sit down and do the job properly.<br /><br />Without that background you might think that today's post was about defending the zeppeloon, seeing that it is still on my site. Well, the next instalment will probably be the end of ballonts on Furaha. Let me get to that post in my own time. Afterwards ballonts on Furaha are likely destined for oblivion, not so much for Darwinian as for Newtonian reasons.Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-25616843150594056712011-07-15T22:40:11.143+02:002011-07-15T22:40:11.143+02:00While you've convinced me that ballonts are po...While you've convinced me that ballonts are possible from a mechanical perspective, I still feel that the explanation is as yet incomplete. How could such creatures evolve? I can't see the balloon as anything more than a vulnerability till it grows large enough to carry future ballonts upwards, and even then it may be their downfall (more on this below). Did they originate in an isolated environment where there were no animal threats to their ascent? If weight that can be carried rapidly decreases as the balloon grows smaller, how do infant ballonts thrive (or, for that matter, the millimeter length balloonlings)? As far as I've seen most of your illustrated ballonts don't seem to have any obvious wings or means of guidance aside from vestigial fins - how do they control their flight? The zeppeloon's method of changing its body color and with it gas temperature would help it to rise and sink, but it wouldn't help it steer, and the process would be agonizingly slow. I can't help but feel that they would be at the mercy of wind, or more dangerously, having their membranes punctured. All it would take is a bump into a large thorn, sharp branch, or even a hungry predator. How do they defend themselves from predators? Slow ballonts would make easy prey for Furaha's heavier-than-air fliers, which would only have to fly up and puncture them then wait till they run out of hydrogen and die. For that matter, how much energy would it cost to produce the hydrogen required to fill those huge balloons?<br /><br />I admit it's silly of me to argue this point seeing as I have suggested lighter-than-air flight for other exobiology projects; I just feel the sloth of a purely lighter-than-air flier and its inability to direct itself would be its downfall, just as hot air balloons give way to other aircraft (in both cases when I suggested ballonts, there were no threats to directionless flight and no real need to direct it). Originally I intended to have lighter-than-air insectoids on Zainter which simply used surrounding air and heated it within their bodies to achieve lift, but I've long since scrapped the idea - chances are the gas would have to be heated to a temperature unbearable for the rest of the organism just to rise off the ground, and the heating process would be too energy intensive for the insectoid to handle. Hearing that smaller balloons carry progressively smaller payloads further dissuades me from including them. <br /><br />Knowing your thoroughness I'm sure you've already solved these problems, but I would like to know how on Earth (or Furaha) you've managed it. ;)Zerraspacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07787257487928482864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-27430795619788893112011-07-15T17:03:19.683+02:002011-07-15T17:03:19.683+02:00Trex841: I know it is little consolation, but if y...Trex841: I know it is little consolation, but if your fish have swim baldders, they are in a sense ballonts. Just in water, not in air.<br /><br />Luciano: Quite a few very small organisms use drag on hairs and plumes and the like to travel upwards in with the air. Lots of 1-2 mm spiders do so. it is even called 'spider ballooning'. I wished to see what true ballooning could do. <br /><br />Luke: that might be a while. Posts like this one take a lot of time.Sigmund Nastrazzurrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16449461215427527447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-84054018163582282772011-07-15T16:56:38.297+02:002011-07-15T16:56:38.297+02:00Thanks for this informative and long-awaited post....Thanks for this informative and long-awaited post. Interesting that ballonts are almost the mirror image of regular, compressional organisms; bigger is better. That's an important rule that we'll all be keeping in mind from now on.<br /><br />Can't wait for further installments of the series!Lukenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-75561928175969759242011-07-15T15:15:55.832+02:002011-07-15T15:15:55.832+02:00Excellent post (and images)!
I've always imag...Excellent post (and images)!<br /><br />I've always imagined that, on worlds with an atmosphere density at least equal to, but preferably greater than Earth's; there could be an entire food chain starting with hydrogen-producing free floating microbes that get eaten by jellyfish-like animals which store the gas of their prey in a disproportionally-huge bladder<br /><br />Despite your disproving of balloon-seeds, I have a feeling that balloon-microbes are still in because there are regular microorganisms that spend their whole lives afloat here on Earth. Perhaps there is a point where the mass of the body because so small that it will float anyway, carried by the weakest winds!<br /><br />Anyway, I think I know where you're going with part II. Waiting to hear your thoughts on that subject as well :- )Luciano N. Ribeirohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17377655622158843597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5821098719340852065.post-28994803294487293412011-07-15T14:19:30.690+02:002011-07-15T14:19:30.690+02:00*sigh* well, it seems that my floating fish could ...*sigh* well, it seems that my floating fish could never be. oh well, i still love ballonts, i'm shere i'll find some place for them.trex841noreply@blogger.com